Glenstrae/Research deadend

[ShipResearcher1872]

Hi all,

I've looked into my dad's MN career and it threw up some interesting info but sadly it didn't list which ships he was on. From anecdotes, he said 'Glenstrae' and I have the Crew List & Agreements link from 1939 to 1949 yet to look through.

Is it commonplace for research to hit deadends like this? The impression I get is that sailors often just went from ship to ship, vocation to vocation or role and very little paperwork was done.

Dad's stories place him in Hong Kong, Trincomolee, Singapore (even Japan), South America, India, South Africa, the US - everywhere, but not much trace of paperwork.

He was an electrician and also did a lot of work on land restoring rail networks in Hong Kong after the Japanese left.

Dad used words like 'Wavy Navy' to describe who he worked for and there's a lot of stories that say he was in the MN, MN Reserve, RNR, the latter where he filled in when RN ships had shortages of specific skilled sailors.

There was no record of dad on the Glenstrae crew lists 1943-1945 but when I look at the ship logs there's a lot of ports that match a lot of his stories including the death of a crewmate from a gun malfunction in early 1940's.

If anyone can help with info about the uniform, badges or backdrops to these photos, please do, also any research tips and so forth.

Below is what a researcher from Forces War Records could find.

Name: David Glen Watson

DOB: 28 August 1921

Identity Card: BS 206966 (new)

Identity Card: BS 148761 (lost)

No. of DIS. A Issued: R339679

Junior Electrician

N.R. No. SGGB/73/3

Central Register of Seamen (aka Fifth Register of Seamen), 1941-1972

BT 382/1891 Nothing survives.

BT 382/3020 Nothing survives.

BT 372 Pouch survives.

BT 390 Nothing survives.

BT 391 Nothing survives.

BT 377/7 Record (if it exists) not open to public inspection but can be requested under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

[R58484957]

Greetings SR and a warm welcome to SH. Bon voyage.

[Hugh]

Hello and welcome,
MN records are usually quite well documented but they are not all available online. I see you have his Seaman's Pouch which is easy to get hold of but I am afraid the information from your researcher makes me a little suspicious. It is possible of course that his record has not survived but I received information like this when I started out researching and the researcher didn't know MN records very well and got it totally wrong. I am glad I took things into my own hands and found the files I needed.

Firstly, keep an open mind as to what you have heard so that you don't approach your research from the wrong place. All of his ships should be available in his CRS10 - service record from Jan, 1941- this is held in the Fifth Register of Seaman in series BT 382. BT 382 is not available online as each box contains up to 60 other names therefore the file has to be asked for and picked from that particular box.

So you do have to visit Kew which I note is not an option or employ a researcher to obtain the file for you. I also note that your FWR researcher states: BT 382/1891 Nothing survives. BT 382/3020 Nothing survives. The question I would ask is is he familiar with searching BT 382? Did he actually go to Kew or did he just try and obtain it online?

Anyway my advice is to forget about Crew Agreements for the moment until you see the CRS10. I would expect to find it in BT 382/1891 but if he served beyond the mid to late 60's I would also look in the Series II file in BT 382/3020.

What was in the pouch? Was there a CR2 card?

My researcher charges me about £5 GBP for a CRS10.


Regards
Hugh

[ShipResearcher1872]

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the quick reply and caution - I must admit I was a wee bit curious about FWR's services and whether or not they take the money and just do an online search. That said, they did send a photo of a Crew List they searched in 1944 from kew, so I expect they were onsite and have experience. I will plan to get to Kew some day.

I've posted five of the seven documents I was sent from his Seaman's Pouch the list of ships served on was frustratingly left blank.

Reading the documents, it seems to me my father was transferring *from somewhere* to the Merchant Navy Reserve, but there's no trail for anything prior to this paperwork being kickstarted.

Dad did tell a story about a sailor on the Glenstrae who died in a weapon's malfunction which I think happened in March 1941 so it may be worth looking at the Crew List & Agreements for that time period.

Is it possible my father travelled on the Glenstrae but wasn't a "sailor"? He did qualify as an electrician and worked on land based jobs in Sri Lanka, South Africa, Hong Kong, India and South America.

Gordon

[Hugh]

Hi Gordon,

You state: "I've posted five of the seven documents I was sent from his Seaman's Pouch the list of ships served on was frustratingly left blank." The only list of ships that would be in a pouch are listed on a CR2 card and usually those ships or rather the ship's official numbers are shown. Also usually only ships prior to January 1941 as after this date records were transferred into his CRS10. You have only posted a CR1 so was there a blank CR2 in the pouch or no CR2?

You state: "Reading the documents, it seems to me my father was transferring *from somewhere* to the Merchant Navy Reserve, but there's no trail for anything prior to this paperwork being kickstarted." The CR1 states issued on entry to the Merchant Navy Reserve Pool [stamped 1946][Note* - not the Merchant Navy Reserve - there was no entity called the MN Reserve]. In 1941 the Essential Work (Merchant Navy) Order created a Merchant Navy Reserve Pool. To ensure that seamen would always be available for service, the Government paid them to remain in the Reserve Pool when they were ashore. Thus continuous paid employment instead of casual employment was available to all seamen, and comprehensive and effective registration became possible.

You state:"Dad did tell a story about a sailor on the Glenstrae who died in a weapon's malfunction which I think happened in March 1941 so it may be worth looking at the Crew List & Agreements for that time period." Yes, it would, but I would leave the Crew Agreement for 1941 until you are sure there is no CRS10. You are going by family lore which may or may not be correct given the passage of time.

You state: "Is it possible my father travelled on the Glenstrae but wasn't a "sailor"? He did qualify as an electrician and worked on land based jobs in Sri Lanka, South Africa, Hong Kong, India and South America."
Yes, that is possible too although I can see no reference to him on passenger lists on GLENSTRAE. You may also wish to consider that he may have been employed as an electrician ashore and not actually in the Merchant Navy until 1946 as per the CR1 but I am acutely aware that these cards are not complete and that is why I would urge you to check again for a CRS10 at Kew perhaps using another researcher to be sure.

Regards
Hugh

[ShipResearcher1872]

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the detailed replies, they're extremely helpful.

I've added the two remaining documents from the researcher's summary from Forces War Records to give the fullest picture I can.

I'm looking into a possible visit to the UK sometime in the next 12-24 months and a visit to Kew will be part of that.

Question: If non-MN staff were required on land-based jobs, where would record of that be held? (I wouldn't even know where to start).

I am aware that there is a medal category for WW2 service that covers just about everything from teaching to clerical to nursing staff.

Thanks again,

GGW

[Hugh]

Hi Gordon,
Clearly no CR2 card held in the pouch then. Those other documents do not aid your search I am afraid.

You ask: "If non-MN staff were required on land-based jobs, where would record of that be held? (I wouldn't even know where to start)." If he was working on land jobs I guess it would be before any service in the MN. Those with certain trades were subject to the Essential Works order and couldn't be called up for military service - the Bevin Boy's for example - conscripts to the mines. The Merchant Navy was itself subject to the Essential Works (MN) Order early 1941 and you could not just go off and do another job. I am afraid I wouldn't have a clue where to look either.

I received your email and I will respond shortly.
Regards
Hugh

[ShipResearcher1872]

Hi Hugh,

I did some digging around Google and discovered an article in the Daily Record from two years ago that spoke about people who worked in the John Brown Shipyards as electricians (of all vocations) and I've emailed the journalist to see if there's more to unpick from this thread. A sister of mine recalled a story about dad doing his apprenticeship in the JB shipyards so this could be a useful lead. The other lead I've reached for is dad's time in the NZ Shipping Company working on the Rangitata, post-war, which seems to be held in the UK and owned by P&O. That may have fuller details as I would imagine they didn't simply hire staff off the strength of a verbal interview, there could be a record of ships etc etc. I also contacted the researcher you mentioned and will see what that yields. Once again thanks for your help.

Gordon