Flag Etiquette

[Nick74]

I visited Chatham Historic Dockyard, which I would highly reconm.
But I noticed that HMS/M Ocelot flew a red ensign, whilst HMS Cavalier in the adjacent dock, flew a white ensign.
Why the difference, and was either wrong?

[Malcolm G]

For what it's worth, my opinion...
Both ships are decommissioned but,
HMS Cavalier is displayed as the National Destroyer Memorial and is thus probably considered a Royal Navy ship.
HMs/m Ocelot is displayed as the last submarine to be built at Chatham and her connection is with the builders, so not a Royal Navy ship.
Note also that Ocelot also correctly wears a civil 'Pilot' Jack and Cavalier wears an un-bordered Union Jack.

[FG86]

Flag etiquette is a veritable minefield. To fly the white ensign by a non commissioned ex warship would require a special dispensation from HM via MOD. I suspect they requested it and it was granted on a number of conditions, namely the vessel is part of a recognised UK military related charity, the ship is maintained in good condition and timings of flying the flag are agreed, all in all not to bring disrepute upon HM. I can only assume that the submarine is run under a different organisation within the dockyard and as such only qualifies as a UK registered vessel for which all craft are free to fly their national maritime ensign.

[Varley]

FG86! To bring disrespect upon HM is possible. To bring disrepute is not.

[Engine Serang]

And it took you over three months to cobble that sentence together.

[YM-Mundrabilla]

Elegant prose takes time.
How long have they been fiddling around trying to get the King James Bible 'right'?

[Varley]

I am built for comfort not speed.

(The preface addresses the antipodean shovelsahib's concern but suggests that 1611 version to be the ultimate. It happened to the Brothers Grimm, too but Nannies did not have Princes of State and Superstition as would be guru).

[Powers]

Thanks for the info FG - very informative. Regards Paul

[Engine Serang]

As an atheist, an agnostic and an a-la-carte Christian I think the 1611 KJV is a grand wee book. And I am unanimous on that.

Flag Etiquette is one of the few traditions that is remaining on ships and is adhered to by almost all , but I have dealt with Bean Counters who have questioned the need for Courtesy Flags. Let's not dally on this topic in case anyone strays into the minefield of humanitarian assistance.

[170 Driver]

Originally Posted by Varley

FG86! To bring disrespect upon HM is possible. To bring disrepute is not.

But Andy`s trying.

[Varley]

(Possible, unproven) Disrepute of son = same to Mother? Not PC I think.

(She always has the warming-pan excuse).

[al1934]

Originally Posted by Engine Serang

As an atheist, an agnostic and an a-la-carte Christian I think the 1611 KJV is a grand wee book. And I am unanimous on that.

Flag Etiquette is one of the few traditions that is remaining on ships and is adhered to by almost all , but I have dealt with Bean Counters who have questioned the need for Courtesy Flags. Let's not dally on this topic in case anyone strays into the minefield of humanitarian assistance.

I agree that the 1611 KJV is a grand book but not at all wee. I have our family Bible in my possession and it is huge and weighs a ton. Metal edged leather-bound cover and gold edged pages. Useful for defence to attack intruders.

[Engine Serang]

Not bedtime reading.

[al1934]

Originally Posted by FG86

Flag etiquette is a veritable minefield. To fly the white ensign by a non commissioned ex warship would require a special dispensation from HM via MOD. I suspect they requested it and it was granted on a number of conditions, namely the vessel is part of a recognised UK military related charity, the ship is maintained in good condition and timings of flying the flag are agreed, all in all not to bring disrepute upon HM. I can only assume that the submarine is run under a different organisation within the dockyard and as such only qualifies as a UK registered vessel for which all craft are free to fly their national maritime ensign.

She was treated as a special case due to the untiring work of Sid Anning, who worked his socks off and inspired a number of us CA-Class veterans to assist in raising an enormous amount of money and an unbelievable amount of public interest in her before Sid took her case to parliament, which resulted in Cavalier being transferred to The Historic Dockyard, Chatham for preservation. You can see the 1999 Navy News entry at https://issuu.com/navynews/docs/199906_cavalier

Before that she had been left swinging round a buoy at Southampton before being moved alongside and opened to the public. I took my son to visit her and found that she was only partly open with much of her deemed 'unsafe for the public'. She was later towed to Brighton marina, then to the North East before Sid's hard work paid off and she was finally towed to Chatham.

How quickly we can forget.